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Its that time of year again, when we are getting ready for Christmas, family and Santa. Sadly not everyone will be looking forward with anticipation, instead simple hoping for food, warmth or a small present. Thankfully there are goups like 'Little Blue Heroes' and 'Barnados' out there. Both help the youngest and most vulnerable in society and this Christmas we ask that you join us in making a donation at https://www.littleblueheroes.org/donate/ or https://www.barnardos.ie/christmas


Stardust Evidence Assessment
#1
Read Judge McCartens report this evening. Must be upsetting for the families but it's as clear as day that there wasn't a shred of new evidence submitted by the families in their document.
And what possessed them to use that Foy women to compile the new evidence dossier? The women is clearly a loon and utterly out of her depth. They described her as a scientist. She held a diploma in horticulture from some place in Termonfeckin.
Unfortunately it doesn't look as if it will ever be established where or how the fire started.
The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are filled with doubts while the stupid people are full of confidence...
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#2
Grew up down the road from the place and recall the sirens that night. My school had the presentation for previous summers leaving certificate class that Friday night and my late mum was on parents committee. Most of students went to Stardust after as it was one of the "in" places to go. Went to my scouts next morning and found out a mates brother had perished. Also knew a survivor. Terrible terrible night.

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#3
Everyone knows the original Tribunal was seriously flawed. However, I can't see how it is possible to actually definitively come up with a reason for the fire all these years on.
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#4
It's impossible at this point to determine the cause, and it was nigh on impossible back then given the ferocity of the blaze. It may well be one of those incidents for which closure will jever he found.
We trained hard ... but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
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#5
Whatever about cause of or initial seat of blaze, the criminal conduct of locking fire escapes was one serious contribution to majority of deaths in my layman's opinion and to think noone was held accountable for that is a stain on this country.

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#6
They Never Came Home is a book worth reading about the disaster, and gives good background into the politics at the time, the Butterly family, inspection regimes, etc. If it happened today you would like to think the response (aftermath especially) would be far superior and an investigation far more thorough. Fire investigation and fire science was still in its infancy back then. 36 years later it would be very hard to give a definite conclusion given the passage of time and, I presume, lack of physical evidence today. Horrible for the families....can’t imagine what they have been through.
We are the willing, led by the unknowning, doing the impossible, for the ungrateful.
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#7
Yeah I think there was a level of responsibility for the deaths which was never correctly addressed, and that is shameful.
But it’s pointless as well, for what seem to me, to be completely half baked theory’s proposed by the families which aren’t doing themselves justice.
There is this emphasis on the store room with “huge amounts” of flammable liquid stored there, which they claim added to the fire load or possibly a fire to spread greatly.
This was vegetable cooking oil that was stored there, that is not a flammable liquid, in fact it’s not even close to being flammable. It is combustible which is a different thing entirely.You would need temperatures of around 350deg C to get it to burn and the time and fuel load required to get a 20litre drum of cooking oil to 350C could not have been a fire that would have gone unnoticed.
Then their claim that five people were dead because of fumes before the fire was seen has no basis in fact either, the expert witnesses perjured themselves they say, the Gardai’s evidence was untrue and that the plans of the building submitted at the tribunal were incorrect, none of which are supported by any evidence of any kind.
The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are filled with doubts while the stupid people are full of confidence...
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#8
Here’s the report for those interested:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Report_of_...n_1981.pdf
We are the willing, led by the unknowning, doing the impossible, for the ungrateful.
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#9
(08-11-2017, 09:47 AM)Command Support Wrote: They Never Came Home is a book worth reading about the disaster, and gives good background into the politics at the time, the Butterly family, inspection regimes, etc. If it happened today you would like to think the response (aftermath especially) would be far superior and an investigation far more thorough. Fire investigation and fire science was still in its infancy back then. 36 years later it would be very hard to give a definite conclusion given the passage of time and, I presume, lack of physical evidence today. Horrible for the families....can’t imagine what they have been through.


I’m not sure was the fire investigation all that bad . The Garda collection of evidence was very strong and the investigation by the Fire Research Station in the UK was very thorough, even though to be fair from what I can remember, they were really looking at the reason for fire spread rather than finding the origin and ignition source.

I think the biggest failing was simply the Keane Tribunal suddenly jumping from saying they could not establish a cause to saying this meant the most likely source was arson, which was a massive call, not based in fact.
The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are filled with doubts while the stupid people are full of confidence...
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#10
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#11
(08-11-2017, 10:41 AM)Brigade Wrote:
(08-11-2017, 09:47 AM)Command Support Wrote: They Never Came Home is a book worth reading about the disaster, and gives good background into the politics at the time, the Butterly family, inspection regimes, etc. If it happened today you would like to think the response (aftermath especially) would be far superior and an investigation far more thorough. Fire investigation and fire science was still in its infancy back then. 36 years later it would be very hard to give a definite conclusion given the passage of time and, I presume, lack of physical evidence today. Horrible for the families....can’t imagine what they have been through.


I’m not sure was the fire investigation all that bad . The Garda collection of evidence was very strong and the investigation by the Fire Research Station in the UK was very thorough, even though to be fair from what I can remember, they were really looking at the reason for fire spread rather than finding the origin and ignition source.

I think the biggest failing was simply the Keane Tribunal suddenly jumping from saying they could not establish a cause to saying this meant the most likely source was arson, which was a massive call, not based in fact.

I suppose I’m thinking of the video of the demo in cardington, and how surprised they were with the fire spread and ferocity as regards to our knowledge of fire behaviour now. Easy to look back now versus what was known at the time I guess.

I think the mention of arson in the report opened the door for the owners to sue DCC at the time?!
We are the willing, led by the unknowning, doing the impossible, for the ungrateful.
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#12
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/...-1.2950808

At the time, under the Local Government Act, local authorities were responsible for providing compensation for property damaged maliciously (this was amended /severely restricted in 1986 - only really payable now for damaged caused during a riot or terrorism).

At the time the investigation broke new ground for thoroughness (you'd  nearly need a forklift to pick up the Keane Tribunal report), and taken together with the amendments made by Coffey, it's as much as probably is ever going to be established about the tragedy.

It's understandable that the families want to get more certainty, hopefully the very strong language used by Mr. Justice McCartan to criticise the quality of what was submitted and the lack of qualifications of the "researcher" will dissuade charlatans from offering them false hope.
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#13
The ability to sue the Local Authority for malicious damages led to large fires all over the country, especially towards the end of the financial year.
We trained hard ... but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
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#14
Obviously families want closure but there's no way of finalising any further investigation. Ireland was a different world back then.
I worked with one of the bar staff years later in a bar, any sign of trouble he would run around kicking fire exits open... i can't imagine the effects that night had on him and anyone who survived.
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