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Is pinching a patient considered assault?
#1
Hello everyone I'm new to this site I'm Bravo1. 
I was at school today and was called by another first aider to give my advice, on a patient and treat according. Im not going to go into to much details about the other first aider or what organisation he s from but isn't in my organisation. 

Right so the patient is a juvenile and had what we know now to be a broken hand. The first aider had pinched the patients injured arm as he say it was numb. As I was arriving on scene I could see him pinching him and told him to stop! He admitted to me confront of the patient that he had done it once or twice before on this patient...I was and still am shocked! How every that was fine so i took out a pen and ran it gently up his arm and took mental note where and when he could and couldn't feel it. Am I correct in saying that the other first aider assault that patient. If it is I'm going to make a complaint about the incident to the school and senior management. This is not the first time this person has done something wrong as he has leaked patient information e.g. Name, injures, age and year of the patient to his mates, I don't think it is acceptable one bit. What to you guy think? Should I complain him to his organisation and school or just the school management? The management are aware of his tendencies to give out information and are looking into it. 

Thank you very much for reading this and if you replay id appreciate it very much, 
B1
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#2
(02-12-2015, 03:57 PM)Bravo1 Wrote: Hello everyone I'm new to this site I'm Bravo1. 
I was at school today and was called by another first aider to give my advice, on a patient and treat according. Im not going to go into to much details about the other first aider or what organisation he s from but isn't in my organisation. 

Right so the patient is a juvenile and had what we know now to be a broken hand. The first aider had pinched the patients injured arm as he say it was numb. As I was arriving on scene I could see him pinching him and told him to stop! He admitted to me confront of the patient that he had done it once or twice before on this patient...I was and still am shocked! How every that was fine so i took out a pen and ran it gently up his arm and took mental note where and when he could and couldn't feel it. Am I correct in saying that the other first aider assault that patient. If it is I'm going to make a complaint about the incident to the school and senior management. This is not the first time this person has done something wrong as he has leaked patient information e.g. Name, injures, age and year of the patient to his mates, I don't think it is acceptable one bit. What to you guy think? Should I complain him to his organisation and school or just the school management? The management are aware of his tendencies to give out information and are looking into it. 

Thank you very much for reading this and if you replay id appreciate it very much, 
B1

I'm not familiar with looking for pain that when examining someone, but was this person taught this method, perhaps before a revision in the teaching? 

Regarding the use of force, he will say that he did it with good intention and that is him covered. Like when I squeeze someone's ear, force a pen down on their finger nail or rub knuckles on someone's chest if they are unresponsive. I am doing it with good intent. If I did it on someone who was responsive then I could be found to be assaulting them.
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#3
(02-12-2015, 04:07 PM)foreign Wrote:
(02-12-2015, 03:57 PM)Bravo1 Wrote: Hello everyone I'm new to this site I'm Bravo1. 
I was at school today and was called by another first aider to give my advice, on a patient and treat according. Im not going to go into to much details about the other first aider or what organisation he s from but isn't in my organisation. 

Right so the patient is a juvenile and had what we know now to be a broken hand. The first aider had pinched the patients injured arm as he say it was numb. As I was arriving on scene I could see him pinching him and told him to stop! He admitted to me confront of the patient that he had done it once or twice before on this patient...I was and still am shocked! How every that was fine so i took out a pen and ran it gently up his arm and took mental note where and when he could and couldn't feel it. Am I correct in saying that the other first aider assault that patient. If it is I'm going to make a complaint about the incident to the school and senior management. This is not the first time this person has done something wrong as he has leaked patient information e.g. Name, injures, age and year of the patient to his mates, I don't think it is acceptable one bit. What to you guy think? Should I complain him to his organisation and school or just the school management? The management are aware of his tendencies to give out information and are looking into it. 

Thank you very much for reading this and if you replay id appreciate it very much, 
B1

I'm not familiar with looking for pain that when examining someone, but was this person taught this method, perhaps before a revision in the teaching? 

Regarding the use of force, he will say that he did it with good intention and that is him covered. Like when I squeeze someone's ear, force a pen down on their finger nail or rub knuckles on someone's chest if they are unresponsive. I am doing it with good intent. If I did it on someone who was responsive then I could be found to be assaulting them.

He would be younger than me and I was always told by serving paramedics and EMTs that you can't inflict pain or well your not meant to but I'm looking for second options to try sort this out. Not to remind you that he has breached patient confidentiality on a number of occasions.
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#4
(02-12-2015, 04:15 PM)Bravo1 Wrote:
(02-12-2015, 04:07 PM)foreign Wrote:
(02-12-2015, 03:57 PM)Bravo1 Wrote: Hello everyone I'm new to this site I'm Bravo1. 
I was at school today and was called by another first aider to give my advice, on a patient and treat according. Im not going to go into to much details about the other first aider or what organisation he s from but isn't in my organisation. 

Right so the patient is a juvenile and had what we know now to be a broken hand. The first aider had pinched the patients injured arm as he say it was numb. As I was arriving on scene I could see him pinching him and told him to stop! He admitted to me confront of the patient that he had done it once or twice before on this patient...I was and still am shocked! How every that was fine so i took out a pen and ran it gently up his arm and took mental note where and when he could and couldn't feel it. Am I correct in saying that the other first aider assault that patient. If it is I'm going to make a complaint about the incident to the school and senior management. This is not the first time this person has done something wrong as he has leaked patient information e.g. Name, injures, age and year of the patient to his mates, I don't think it is acceptable one bit. What to you guy think? Should I complain him to his organisation and school or just the school management? The management are aware of his tendencies to give out information and are looking into it. 

Thank you very much for reading this and if you replay id appreciate it very much, 
B1

I'm not familiar with looking for pain that when examining someone, but was this person taught this method, perhaps before a revision in the teaching? 

Regarding the use of force, he will say that he did it with good intention and that is him covered. Like when I squeeze someone's ear, force a pen down on their finger nail or rub knuckles on someone's chest if they are unresponsive. I am doing it with good intent. If I did it on someone who was responsive then I could be found to be assaulting them.

He would be younger than me and I was always told by serving paramedics and EMTs that you can't inflict pain or well your not meant to but I'm looking for second options to try sort this out. Not to remind you that he has breached patient confidentiality on a number of occasions.

Did the patient complain? Maybe you need to speak to his organisation about his behaviour and recommend additional training?
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#5
The 'P' in AVPU refers to the patients response to painful stimuli, however if the patient is alert then you should stop there.
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#6
agreed the AVPU allows you to if not response to A or V to admin pain stimulus, PHECC teaching is to roll a pen across the nail bed, but thats only a guide
Those who can, do.

Those who can't do, teach.

Those who can't do or teach....... Manage!
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#7
(02-12-2015, 04:26 PM)999nobody Wrote: The 'P' in AVPU refers to the patients response to painful stimuli, however if the patient is alert then you should stop there.

I am trainee EFR and he is OFA or basic i think they call it. Patient was A. He was complaining of slight loss of feeling so he pinched him a number of times I'm told. I will speak to his ordination about this on the advice i was given here. Thank you...
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#8
Trainee EFR =?

Just throwing it out there - CSM check maybe?
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#9
(03-12-2015, 10:53 AM)civdef Wrote: Trainee EFR =?

Just throwing it out there - CSM check maybe?

I did but I wasn't called until 30 minutes but i did check CSM's but when I asked questions the patient would be answering and the other lad would cut in Iv now made a complaint to his organisation
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#10
My point was "trainee" isn't a qualification. So what level are you actually trained to, and why not describe yourself as that?
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#11
No, it is not ok to pinch a patient (if it's as you described) especially one that's conscious and A on AVPU. Paramedics and above will have their own favourite tests for P on AVPU but if it's like how most of us trained in the voluntaries are taught, it will involve the pen on the nailbed, but this is not applicable here at all by the sounds of it.  This person may have thought they were checking CSMs but this would not be correct technique at all. 

Sounds like a re-training issue...
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#12
[/quote]

I did but I wasn't called until 30 minutes but i did check CSM's but when I asked questions the patient would be answering and the other lad would cut in Iv now made a complaint to his organisation
[/quote]

Why make a complaint to his organisation? From your account of the situation, he was not acting on behalf of the organisation at the time of the event. Organisations cannot and should not be held responsible for the actions of members when they are not on duty.
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#13
How did you find out this person pinched the patient if you weren't called till 30 min later? If told by a 3rd party be carful you have the right info before you go off making a complaint, other people can often misinterpret what they see and hear
Those who can, do.

Those who can't do, teach.

Those who can't do or teach....... Manage!
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#14
I don't understand the issue here, what's so terrible about pinching someone to see if they can feel it or not?



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#15
(03-12-2015, 05:18 PM)ERU Wrote: I don't understand the issue here, what's so terrible about pinching someone to see if they can feel it or not?

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If it's your sibling it's accepted practice I guess at a certain age 15  but not best practice for patient assessment according to PHECC teachings anyway. It's unnecessary when a simple tapping or rubbing on the skin will do instead to test sensory function. On a conscious alert patient, you're not out to test their pain threshold, only their sensation.  It's like the old sternal rub, that's gone (although there are probably some who still use it) and can be seen as assault.  

Wouldn't be getting overly worked up over it OP unless the patient complained. The other person is not in your organisation and you therefore don't have to work alongside him on a regular basis to be getting annoyed over it. Let his own org sort him out.
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#16
So what level is a trainee EFR
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#17
Call me a mean 'oul cynic, but I suspect there's a lot more going on here in relation to this than our "trainee EFR" is letting on. Sounds like there's bad blood between the concerned "trainee" and the pincher - if you'll pardon the awful first aid pun.
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#18
Hang on a Sec.Trainee efr? No such thing, if you are only training as an efr then you must be a cfra which means that the occupational first aider outranks you not the other way round.


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#19
Can't think of any reason at all why someone would have to pinch a patient with a limb injury.  You're checking CSMs so that is the presence of sensation so "can you feel this?" with a light touch.

That is different to checking if an apparently unresponsive person can be roused by painful stimuli, which is what a pinch would be.  Not that a pinch would be considered an appropriate method to deliver a painful stimulus.

What I want to know is, where were the adults (ie teachers) in all this?  Why would students be called upon to treat other students (or staff for that matter)?
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This post has been repped by: thehawk (4),

#20
(04-12-2015, 01:20 AM)echo59 Wrote: .  Not that a pinch would be considered an appropriate method to deliver a painful stimulus.
?


.................but it works 15
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